Comments for Wine Conversation http://wineconversation.com Reaching out from within the wine bubble Sun, 13 May 2012 05:21:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by Jack Cunningham http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6729 Jack Cunningham Sun, 13 May 2012 05:21:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6729 Robert - I loved this piece, admire the way you draw parallels to other subjects; Big Fan. Riesling is without doubt my favourite grape I think, and I recognise the challenge that is faced by the industry (whilst not working in it myself). It took me a while to get my wife to come round to the idea, and unfortunately where I live (far east) the offerings are excrutiatingly poor - either scrape the barrel, or pay top whack for average wines because the taxes here are so enormous. I am doing my bit to write about the differences, but as you'll see from my own, more amateur writing, I have also been caught out by different styles (that may have been affected by storage, lets face it), too and I imagine for the less adventurous one failure would be enough to put them off for life. I imagine same must be said for other grape varieties or wines? Muscadet? Picpoul? Austrian wine? to name a few. I've had conversations with older folk who scoff at the mention of some of these because of the common knowledge you talk about. sozzld.wordpress.com Robert – I loved this piece, admire the way you draw parallels to other subjects; Big Fan. Riesling is without doubt my favourite grape I think, and I recognise the challenge that is faced by the industry (whilst not working in it myself). It took me a while to get my wife to come round to the idea, and unfortunately where I live (far east) the offerings are excrutiatingly poor – either scrape the barrel, or pay top whack for average wines because the taxes here are so enormous. I am doing my bit to write about the differences, but as you’ll see from my own, more amateur writing, I have also been caught out by different styles (that may have been affected by storage, lets face it), too and I imagine for the less adventurous one failure would be enough to put them off for life. I imagine same must be said for other grape varieties or wines? Muscadet? Picpoul? Austrian wine? to name a few. I’ve had conversations with older folk who scoff at the mention of some of these because of the common knowledge you talk about.

sozzld.wordpress.com

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by J Roberts http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6728 J Roberts Sat, 05 May 2012 06:22:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6728 And I should change my avatar to something more specific! And I should change my avatar to something more specific!

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by thirstforwine http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6727 thirstforwine Fri, 04 May 2012 19:14:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6727 ha! sorry Justin. Should have guessed from the sherry reference, but then again Joe likes sherry too :) ha! sorry Justin. Should have guessed from the sherry reference, but then again Joe likes sherry too :)

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by J Roberts http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6726 J Roberts Fri, 04 May 2012 18:09:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6726 Different J Roberts. This one is the Jerez version... Different J Roberts. This one is the Jerez version…

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by thirstforwine http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6725 thirstforwine Fri, 04 May 2012 18:07:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6725 Sadly true Joe - sherry, chardonnay, sparkling wine... that's why it felt like Riesling was the whole wine trade in microcosm - we (experts) see the world through different eyes. Sadly true Joe – sherry, chardonnay, sparkling wine… that’s why it felt like Riesling was the whole wine trade in microcosm – we (experts) see the world through different eyes.

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by J Roberts http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6724 J Roberts Fri, 04 May 2012 17:49:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6724 Edit/replace Riesling for Sherry and your post would read just as well! Edit/replace Riesling for Sherry and your post would read just as well!

]]> Comment on The Art & Craft of Natural Wine by Fabio Bartolomei (@vinosambiz) http://wineconversation.com/the-art-craft-of-natural-wine/comment-page-1/#comment-6723 Fabio Bartolomei (@vinosambiz) Fri, 04 May 2012 14:33:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2417#comment-6723 Robert,   Yes, humans do tend to categorize - too much perhaps, and to look for patterns and causes and effects where none exist! But, as far as I’m concerned, natural wine will get categorized for me by Others, no matter what I say or do, so I see it as completely outwith my control. No doubt the day will come when natural wines are officially defined and legislated, and there will be ‘natural’ wine’ lines in the supermarkets! Which of course may in fact be a ‘good thing’ in the wider scheme of things, and then we’ll have to invent a new category! And yes of course, debate is obviously necessary! I think I was writing too fast and not revising what I wrote! I didn’t mean to say that debate wasn’t necessary!!!   What do you mean by “only small steps away from being able to create truly industrial wine”?  Surely, industrial wine has been produced for decades?   I don’t believe that the natural wine market is being driven by a rejection of technology, per se, though it may look like it. I think it’s being partly driven by a rejection of the effects of the use of this technology on the wine.   A rejection of technology is what the Amish or the Mennonites do. They reject technology on principle, full stop. They would probably love any natural wine, no matter how faulty, funky, oxidized, volatile, microbiologically alive it was, as long as they knew that it was made without the use of technology. I personally quite like technology – I’m a sci-fi fan, an ex-trekkie (the therapy is going very well thanks!) and a Culture junkie! But I choose not to use the technology available to me because I believe it’s actually detrimental to the quality of the product I want to make.   I think that natural wine people do reject certain types of wine, but there are two types of wine here that ought to be distinguished in this debate: one is the mass-produced industrial product type wine. I don’t think there’s any doubt about the fact that this type of wine does not and cannot express any type of terroir. It’s a manufactured product that has been built to specifications of taste, acidity, sweetness, alcohol level, and other commercial and organoleptic criteria, etc. That’s not to say that it doesn’t taste nice, is not worth the price, or that millions of people don’t buy it and like it. I have no issue with at all with that. It’s a different product, a different market, and nothing to do with natural wine as far as I’m concerned. That’s also not to say that anyone rejects it utterly, like Satan, say! I personally drink the stuff every day, for example (even though I’d much rather be drinking something else!).   The other type of wine in question is fine wine, quality wine, estate produced wine. There’s no doubt in my mind that these wines really do express the terroir. But even though everybody knows (or can find out) how the grapes were grown (organic or biodynamic or whatever, as in the case of DRC for example), there’s no way to know what they actually did to the grapes once they got them into the winery! (And now we’re getting deep into terroir territory!) Are these producers really expressing the terroir as faithfully as possible or are they manipulating the wine too much to conform to expectations of what their terroir ought to be? I think that many natural wine proponents believe that natural wines, because of the low intervention in the winery, can express the terroir better than conventional, quality, fine wines that have been intervened on more can.   I said “partly” above because I don’t think the technology aspect is the main driving force behind the current popularity of natural wine. I think the main thing is the environmental/ecological/organic/greening phenomenon that has been happening for decades, and which is finally affecting wine too. It’s the zeitgeist, man! Robert,
 
Yes, humans do tend to categorize – too much perhaps, and to look for patterns and causes and effects where none exist! But, as far as I’m concerned, natural wine will get categorized for me by Others, no matter what I say or do, so I see it as completely outwith my control. No doubt the day will come when natural wines are officially defined and legislated, and there will be ‘natural’ wine’ lines in the supermarkets! Which of course may in fact be a ‘good thing’ in the wider scheme of things, and then we’ll have to invent a new category! And yes of course, debate is obviously necessary! I think I was writing too fast and not revising what I wrote! I didn’t mean to say that debate wasn’t necessary!!!
 
What do you mean by “only small steps away from being able to create truly industrial wine”?  Surely, industrial wine has been produced for decades?
 
I don’t believe that the natural wine market is being driven by a rejection of technology, per se, though it may look like it. I think it’s being partly driven by a rejection of the effects of the use of this technology on the wine.
 
A rejection of technology is what the Amish or the Mennonites do. They reject technology on principle, full stop. They would probably love any natural wine, no matter how faulty, funky, oxidized, volatile, microbiologically alive it was, as long as they knew that it was made without the use of technology. I personally quite like technology – I’m a sci-fi fan, an ex-trekkie (the therapy is going very well thanks!) and a Culture junkie! But I choose not to use the technology available to me because I believe it’s actually detrimental to the quality of the product I want to make.
 
I think that natural wine people do reject certain types of wine, but there are two types of wine here that ought to be distinguished in this debate: one is the mass-produced industrial product type wine. I don’t think there’s any doubt about the fact that this type of wine does not and cannot express any type of terroir. It’s a manufactured product that has been built to specifications of taste, acidity, sweetness, alcohol level, and other commercial and organoleptic criteria, etc. That’s not to say that it doesn’t taste nice, is not worth the price, or that millions of people don’t buy it and like it. I have no issue with at all with that. It’s a different product, a different market, and nothing to do with natural wine as far as I’m concerned. That’s also not to say that anyone rejects it utterly, like Satan, say! I personally drink the stuff every day, for example (even though I’d much rather be drinking something else!).
 
The other type of wine in question is fine wine, quality wine, estate produced wine. There’s no doubt in my mind that these wines really do express the terroir. But even though everybody knows (or can find out) how the grapes were grown (organic or biodynamic or whatever, as in the case of DRC for example), there’s no way to know what they actually did to the grapes once they got them into the winery! (And now we’re getting deep into terroir territory!) Are these producers really expressing the terroir as faithfully as possible or are they manipulating the wine too much to conform to expectations of what their terroir ought to be? I think that many natural wine proponents believe that natural wines, because of the low intervention in the winery, can express the terroir better than conventional, quality, fine wines that have been intervened on more can.
 
I said “partly” above because I don’t think the technology aspect is the main driving force behind the current popularity of natural wine. I think the main thing is the environmental/ecological/organic/greening phenomenon that has been happening for decades, and which is finally affecting wine too. It’s the zeitgeist, man!

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by awaldstein http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6722 awaldstein Fri, 04 May 2012 12:15:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6722 Robert...I was not quibbling with your message or intent. I agree completely as you would expect. And I enjoy your posts.  I believe more and more that the broader community for wine conversations online start with touch points at the street level with shops and bars and people.  Online solutions, be they Lot 18 or others will not affect the mainstream regardless of whether they succeed or fail.They are not breaking new ground. The process of Discover, Taste, Share, Buy is my belief in the formula to bring in a broader public. And to do that they need touch points on the ground, at the sip level. Nice chatting. See you later in the month most likely.  Robert…I was not quibbling with your message or intent. I agree completely as you would expect. And I enjoy your posts. 

I believe more and more that the broader community for wine conversations online start with touch points at the street level with shops and bars and people. 

Online solutions, be they Lot 18 or others will not affect the mainstream regardless of whether they succeed or fail.They are not breaking new ground.

The process of Discover, Taste, Share, Buy is my belief in the formula to bring in a broader public. And to do that they need touch points on the ground, at the sip level.

Nice chatting. See you later in the month most likely. 

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by thirstforwine http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6721 thirstforwine Fri, 04 May 2012 12:09:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6721 Thanks Arnold. Yes, I agree that our perspective is very European, and in my case, British. We go to great lengths to remind everyone that wine might be a global product, but everything about communication is local. Where you are changes a lot about what you have access to, what you care about, what you hear about, and the context of your experience. There is a lot that we can learn from activities elsewhere. There will be a Riesling Summit in London in June I believe, so maybe we can get the conversation between us all going here too.  The general point here is my issue with varietal marketing or labelling. It ultimately confuses the customer even though the consumer themselves have been made to believe it helps. Thanks Arnold. Yes, I agree that our perspective is very European, and in my case, British. We go to great lengths to remind everyone that wine might be a global product, but everything about communication is local. Where you are changes a lot about what you have access to, what you care about, what you hear about, and the context of your experience.

There is a lot that we can learn from activities elsewhere. There will be a Riesling Summit in London in June I believe, so maybe we can get the conversation between us all going here too. 
The general point here is my issue with varietal marketing or labelling. It ultimately confuses the customer even though the consumer themselves have been made to believe it helps.

]]> Comment on As my Riesling gently weeps by awaldstein http://wineconversation.com/as-my-riesling-gently-weeps/comment-page-1/#comment-6720 awaldstein Fri, 04 May 2012 12:02:00 +0000 http://wineconversation.com/?p=2334#comment-6720 Hi Robert.. Nicely phrased. The more I read your blog and the blogs of friends from EWBC the more they seem to be speaking to the market and writers in Europe, not that of the states. In NYC the partnership between enthusiasts, bloggers, retail and wine bars is just different. Last summer and this summer as well, was 'Summer of Riesling" with massive offerings of great, mostly 'natural' wines across the city. Lot's got tasted at bars and shops, lots got sold, many were offered to me to taste and blog about. The longer I'm involved and the more I become connected to the NYC scene, the more key this partnership becomes. Hi Robert..

Nicely phrased.

The more I read your blog and the blogs of friends from EWBC the more they seem to be speaking to the market and writers in Europe, not that of the states.

In NYC the partnership between enthusiasts, bloggers, retail and wine bars is just different.

Last summer and this summer as well, was ‘Summer of Riesling” with massive offerings of great, mostly ‘natural’ wines across the city. Lot’s got tasted at bars and shops, lots got sold, many were offered to me to taste and blog about.

The longer I’m involved and the more I become connected to the NYC scene, the more key this partnership becomes.

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